@Jared Edens: Exactly. Even back in the vanilla game in 2005, I remember visiting the Undercity and being horrified at seeing the captive humans being experimented on. The other Horde races weren't evil and weren't doing stuff like that, but Sylvanas allowed it to happen.
Sylvanas did and will do all the things that the horde hated Garrosh for. We've literally seen it in cataclysm. Resurrecting the dead, using the forsaken as pawns, unleashing the plague on her enemies. Brainwashing and experimentation.
She's done all of that, and she's even less mentally stable
Intelligent undead, and the undead she raises have their past memories (Forsaken, Banshees) with a few exceptions (Abominations). She's more or less extending the life of the dead, and her 'plague' still promotes individuality, not rulership.
There's something to be said about Sylvanas in comparison to Arthas: Arthas was a pawn of the Scourge under the Lich King. The undead that Arthas helped create did not have any self-awareness and usually weren't intelligent at all (ghouls, skeletons) whereas Sylvanas surrounds herself with 1/2
@Michael Leue: That's quite a tall order, we're at least centuries away from developing a working time machine. WoW story and gameplay have been utterly fucked since WotLK, and have only ever gotten worse.
Sylvanas being Warchief will make for a better story than someone as vanilla as Baine. Garrosh being made WC was an awful storytelling decision and a betrayal of Horde players everywhere, but Sylvanas has a lot of potential to tie up a lot of loose ends, even if she does go Full Evil on us.
@Tea Love: I guess Hitler deciding gassing the Jews was too much also means he'd be completely fine as world leader then... oh wait, no, that's retarded.
The whole issue with Sylvanas is that she doesn't give a fuck about anything but herself and her own survival because she's terrified of hell.
Forget all the hate, Sylvanas will do more than fine leading the Horde. People love to use Gilneas as a highlight of why she's irredeemable, but conveniently ignore the fact that she herself even came to the conclusion the plague was simply too much. SHE WAS TRYING TO BRING NEW LIFE TO HER PEOPLE YO
@Noam Ben Arih: Whatever the spirits told Vol'jin to make him choose Sylvanas as his successor, I believe that they might have been (ahem) trolling him. I mean, I hope she proves me wrong, but she's done a lot of evil shit in the past and I see no reason to believe she'll stop now.
@Noam Ben Arih: Anduin on the throne is another reason Baine would have been a better choice for Warchief; from all I've read, Baine and Anduin are good friends and would work well together, not to mention that Baine is arguably the most honorable racial leader now that Vol'jin's gone.
Anybody else seeing the pattern here? The whole Vol'jin-Sylvanas situation is incredibly similar to Zeratul and Kerrigan from Starcraft 2. It's not the first time they re-use themes, but at this rate we'll have Sylvanas becoming a new Titan destined to punch out Sargeras.
@Elhao: Deadmines and stockade? Neither of those are even supposed to be visited by Horde, similar to how Wailing caverns and ragefire chasm aren't meant to be visited by Alliance.
And yea your leaders die, but at least SOMETHING fucking happens.
so sylv is gaining more and more influence athe point where b e support her, and after garrosh thing it can lead to in-faction war, voodoo freak pulls a trick with reincarnation/rezz and is making sylv the warchief to work from shadows/death.
Makes perfect sense wonder if blizz thought about it
That is also one of the main reasons for the change of Orgrimmar. Garrosh being a racist and throwing all other races in their respective Ghettos.
And better access to Dungeons? Deadmines and Stockade say hi.
@Censuur: If you call losing our leader every two expansions developmont I'd gladly make do without that. And when Garrosh is the main villain of the Expansion sure the Horde gets a bit more spotlight because a villain needs to be built up.
@Censuur: the Wow side of Blizzard has been hurting for quite some time now; subs keep going down, players never satisfied with gameplay decisions and never will be, fan service is badly needed. I'll still keep playing though.
Trolls have incredible regeneration powers lore wise. Vol'jin was stabbed by a fel-poison tipped spear, which can counteracts his natural regenerative power.
@Wojciech Makowski: He then proves to be a terrible leader, needing Saurfang to wipe his ass for him and he sabotages any attempts at peace talks between the Horde and the Alliance despite knowing fuck all about either faction. Then somehow he's made the Warchief of a people he barely knows.
@Wojciech Makowski: Look man, Horde leaders have all been terrible and Thrall was no exception (at least his WoW version) Garrosh gets a high position in the army out of nepotism, all he did before that was get almost everyone in his clan killed, and then he abandons them, for the Horde!
Bout Thrall decisions, that is correct as nether. Setting orc capitol in desert with limited supplies, taking son of your friend into yoru army without teaching him history of allied races, and few other things. I love Vol'jin just for his line at the end of MoP, but they wasted him completely.
@Tk: "leading" is it? How exactly is standing on the battlefield fighting like a grunt without giving any kind of orders or leadership "leading"? He spent his time being entirely pointless and then his death was that of a grunt, not a leader.
He was leading a fight against a massive demonic army with space ships shooting down on them just to buy the alliance time to kill Guldan (who had a smaller force until he summoned dozens of Burning Legion Leaders)
They could have sent him off better like the legion ships frying him half to death
@Elhao: As for Sylvanas as warchief, in case you didn't get the dozens of memo's on the subject, Legion is one massive fanservice circlejerk, not to mention Horde has been consistently picking the least qualified candidates for leadership since they made Garrosh warchief.
@Elhao: And the issue is kind of oversimplified already as it is, as the main problem with WoW and the faction disparity for a long time now has been Chris Metzen's self-insert faggotry with Thrall, which seems to finally be over now that Metzen himself has left the stage.
So yeah, coming back to the topic, killing Vol'jin off after he didn't do much during his reign is a big waste of a great character and I can't see Sylvanas as Warchief.
I think to satisfy these people they'd have to make an expansion of fighting against the Alliance (for storytelling purposes) but only Horde characters die.
Seriously, this has been ridiculous for quite a while. "Boohoo, SoO is so Orc centric""Yeah, because you topple the Horde's leader. Isn't that a good thing if you're Alliance?" - "Boohoo, WoD is so Orc centric""You KILL these Orcs. That's what the Alliance does, right?"
I'm pretty much convinced that Vol'jin died only because Varian had to die as well and Alliance crybabies keep shouting "Horde favoritism" from the top of their lungs since forever.
@Dave Warren @Censuur, it dependet on the time, mostly in acient times and the Medieval times the Kings would fight, but mostly with cavalry, like Alexander the Great, Richard the III, John of Bohemia or Frederic the Great, and that would give them very good protection so the Kings rarely died.
The entire Horde is a joke now anyway, no Lok'Tar O Gar, just Lok'Tar O shit run. Instead of tactically retreating and regrouping with the Alliance to minimize losses they just did a full panic desertion of the battlefield, awful.
@Jo Pereira: IKR? At a time when Jaina is convinced that the Horde are untrustworthy, making Sylvanas the new Warchief (instead of Lor'themar or Baine or almost anyone else) will do nothing to convince her otherwise.
If all was true except for his death, this is actually really well thought. During battle already lost, he was knocked out by poison. Then Loa told him that Sylvanas should rule the horde, so he fakes his own death to operate from shadow, deceiving Legion spies. He always was strategist, not leader.
(3) Personally, I'm hoping that Vol'jin isn't really dead, and that it was all faked. Like, he's pulling a Nick Fury: "Can't kill you if you're already dead." After all, we don't actually see his body in that funeral pyre. It's vaguely troll-shaped, sure... but is it really him in there?
(2) Troll regeneration is pretty ridiculous, but Vol'jin's is supposed to be utterly absurd. His HEAD nearly came off, and he's been stabbed and poisoned more times than I can mention in the past. Getting stabbed by two dinky little swords just doesn't read right.
This is just another example of stupid Blizzard decisions fucking up a good character. The whole point of "Shadows of the Horde" was that Vol'jin was supposed to be IMPOSSIBLE to kill. He had his throat slit in the first chapter, and he still survived!
It should be noted that Vol'jin was a great leader, but even in Warcraft 3, he wasn't much of a fighter. His original model was that of a Troll Witch Doctor.
So unless he comes back some how, like maybe as some kind of loa-affiliated undead or whatever, that means Blizzard just undid the whole plot point, which means either they planned all along to kill Vol'Jin off and put Sylvannas in charge, or else they had no idea what they were going to do at all.
