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The SC2 ladder is *extremely* diverse in skill level. Even with the looser matchmaking in beta, you will almost always get a fair fight no matter your own level.

@Lazy DM V: competitive players are having would dissolve entirely, and destroy the longevity of the game as a game people practice, watch videos of, and plan on caring about and having "fun" with for years to come.

@Lazy DM V: The problem with your argument is that while anyone can have your kind of "fun" in Starcraft by simply playing with less competitive people, if the game were changed to make it less reliant on precision and build orders, the kind of "fun" people like Baron87 or other *continued*

Blizzard promised tutorial and training maps, but I guess they're not going to become available until the beta is over.

[url=#user_comment_28001]@TheBaron87[/url]: The problem is, much like with Everquest, that the ones who got to decide what was fun with SC were the ones who complained the loudest.

I'm more of the "Honorable Noob", people get so skilled these days, maybe I should stop being so isolated.

I don't want people to stop playing, or not have fun, I just want them to stop trying to shove their fun down everyone's throat. I play casual games too, but I don't think every goddamn game ever made needs to be like that, and I'm definitely not demanding that devs radically alter their series.

But these guys who claim they "play for fun," as if we're not (clearly we are all self-destructive people playing games because they make us miserable and stressed, am I right?), try to get the games I like dumbed down to their level because they're isn't already enough of their crap to satisfy.

@Lazy DM V: Thanks for making my point. Funny that you don't see the hypocrisy in "noone is supposed to play it for fun."

The difference is I don't go into your games and try to change how they work because I dont think they're fun. If I don't like them I LEAVE THEM ALONE.>>

I'm calling it as I see it: SC is a aged game because it has two game elements - micro and macromanagement and does both badly. C&C along with many others did macro better. Micro has just aged - it was pretty much top there back when it was released.
So go on and have fun. I'll play DoW instead.

The long and short: You don't get a monopoly on what's fun or what isn't. Apparently some people don't like that they need to train for several weeks not to get trounced in any online match. Me, I'm just annoyed they changed the balance to Zerg from what I knew, and kept the AI the same. Doomed!

[url=#user_comment_27952]@TheBaron87[/url]: Kid, fun is highly subjective. Winning because you're seconds faster than your opponent at a specific build order might be fun when you're a teenager. Losing because there's only one or two "correct" ways to play and you didn't have a chance to win because of that isn't.

@Lazy DM V: Dammit you people just don't understand the whole "play for fun" thing, and I really don't want to have to spell it out because I'm hoping SOMEBODY is intelligent enough to get the difference. [url=#user_comment_27919] @a[/url]: Seriously, you need to stop using "have fun" and start saying "goof off" or something.

@Lazy DM V: I'm a Zerg Silver League player and I managed to win a decent portion of the time in spite of having like 50 APM over the course of a game. I don't cheese, to boot. Mostly just Roach/Hydra/Muta heavy builds.

[url=#user_comment_27912]@TheBaron87[/url]: yes, they are. But there are versions of those games where you can just have fun with a bunch of people (unlike, apparently, starcraft 2)

[url=#user_comment_27912]@TheBaron87[/url]: StarCraft is weird in that it's an inferior, dated game, yet noone is supposed to play it for fun, despite that being about all it's worth.

[url=#user_comment_27854]@Astralpulse[/url]: Original hard-countering? Original didn't have hard-countering... that's why the forums are so mad. [url=#user_comment_27908] @a[/url]: Sigh... if you can't understand what I mean, then you're one. (Every major league sport is technically just a game.) [url=#user_comment_27858] @Maphysto[/url]: This is a "play for fun" scrub.

[url=#user_comment_27846]@TheBaron87[/url]: "Play for fun scrubs"? Its a FUC*ING GAME. OF COURSE I want to play for fun!

*snickers at butthurt probe* Also, does anyone else think of Alice's raging around from "Marisa stole the Precious thing"?

Ah, I remember back when SC was balanced at the lower levels, with higher levels less balanced, but counterable.

These days, you have to be a Korean to be able to win with Zerg. I'll be off playing a better RTS. Maybe RA3 or Total War or WiC. Kthxbai.

[url=#user_comment_27858]@Maphysto[/url] Clirly u need 2 get some skill RTS games r ez and u have 2 b pretty bad 2 not b good at them I won many SC tornies n my time its n ez game u jus suck

That's cute. You go play your Korean ragefest, I'll be over here having...what's it called? That thing games used to be before people like you came along...

Oh, right, 'fun.'

[url=#user_comment_27854]@Astralpulse[/url]: Dude, you know how sexy the game's gonna be with the GE? Damn, it's gonna blow away W3's editor and StarForge(Or what ever editor you use with Starcraft).

[url=#user_comment_27851]@jso[/url]: Being in the beta, I can say they haven't fully ignored 10 years of RTS progression. That said, however, the game is still 100% catering to people who liked the original hard-counter system. Thankfully the Galaxy Editor comes out soon ... mmm ... custom maps...

[url=#user_comment_27849]@Bob[/url] Cheese into economic advantage I think is one of the best strats in all of RTSdom.

my favorite thread title is "10 years of progress in the RTS genre ignored"

hey I already knew that and I never even played sc2

Do casuals really play SC?

Also, cheese is the best bait and forums are stupid. And male trap with plastic surgery in spandex. But still sexy. What. I didn't say that.

<_<

If you replaced "Roaches" with "Item drops" or "hats" or "demomen" or any TF2 word of your choice, that could be a screenshot of the TF2 Steam Forums.

[url=#user_comment_27836]@Maphysto[/url]: lol oh wow. Good luck finding one with your messed up idea of "skill" and "strategy." SC2 won't be unplayable for anyone but quitters and cowards. Maybe if you stopped being such a baby and stuck to one game for a while your "level" wouldn't be below copper.

@Senor Troll: They're only "dirty" because you say so, and getting easy wins by them at high levels is how you reveal balance problems. And I've never seen anyone make a post about losing to a certain OP unit without it being called whining, so whining must be mandatory to improving a game.

[url=#user_comment_27832]@Shmitz[/url] Thats why I like turn-based stuff. Like RTSs as well; but sometimes it can feel like you're not really thinking about what you're doing. [url=#user_comment_27836] @Maphysto[/url] Played DoW2 at all? HORRIBLE system they got for matchmaking.

[url=#user_comment_27824]@Khosan[/url]: That sounds good on paper, but every game I've ever played with a ranking system ends up pitting me against people leagues ahead of me, because it can't find anyone of my level.

[url=#user_comment_27832]@Shmitz[/url] Like I said, it was probably a really loose quote...And knowing build orders is skill...skill comes from experience. People use build orders because they can't afford to make mistakes, and build orders are proven to work.

@Officer Combine: I won't argue against Day[9], but I'd personally rather play a strategy game where "skill" meant more being clever, and less being a precision clicker and memorizing a long list of possible build orders.

Also, I'm pretty sure the probe in panel 2 and 3 isn't the same one as the probe in panel 1 and 4...look at the neck and "hair".

I think it was Day[9] that said something like this..."There is no such thing as imbalance in starcraft, only a players lack of the skill required to counter."

Oh, damn, the mine-fags are back...

[url=#user_comment_27819]@Mark_M[/url]: It should work out just fine with the League system. Copper League players will play mostly against Copper League players, and Platinum with Platinum. People who are too good for their league will eventually get moved up, people who aren't good will get moved down.

[url=#user_comment_27821]@PT[/url]: That doesn't work all that well. All your opponent needs to do is stick a worker under your CC and you can't land it. Or just be Zerg and be immune to the tactic thanks to creep.

lol, cheese. I got enough SCVs, rafinery, Engineering, and flew my CC to enemy's base with some SCVs, landed, and transformed it into a Planetary Fortress while repairing it and mining from HIS minerals. Worked. Is that cheesy enough?

[url=#user_comment_27819]@Mark_M[/url]: That's why I'm not even gonna bother with SC2. I'll just stick to games that reward actual skill and strategy, rather than mindless click races to see who can pull off the cheapest build order the fastest.

Now that I think about it, multiplayer StarCraft 2 will be pretty much unplayable for casual gamers with all the pro's out there.

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I almost too offense to that. But I comfortable turtling to strike back at a later date with and armada of cloaked aeronautical death. And I'm a jerk

Wait, scratch that. Cheese for no-one. Well, that can be as much of a celebration if you don't like cheese, true...

Wonderful! Time for a celebration... Cheese for everyone!

I don't get the Hip Plaster thing :/

i love how the internet has largely forgotten about people who are competitive in a real-life context or with close-ish friends rather than random douchebags/people you sometimes talk to on IRC

I've never lost w/ cheese so far in the beta.

Time a zealot cheese right, and anything short of him being terran and pulling many scvs off the line to repair his wall-in (and that may not even be up in time)... GG.

[url=#user_comment_27791]@TheBaron87[/url]: What is being represented is not 'pushing the game' or 'discussing balance', it is using dirty tactics to win and then whining like a loli if you lose.

that interprets any criticism as being a bm sore loser?

Cheesers find flaws in balance.
No point finding flaws if you're not going to point them out.

If you don't take the game seriously then why do you care so much about what other people are saying?

If you do, why don't you understand?

You know I'm really starting to think this is some kind of complaint about players ACTUALLY PUSHING THE GAME AND DISCUSSING BALANCE. Are you making fun of noobs who can't win even when they cheese and whine without knowing what they're talking about, or are you one of those "play for fun" scrubs>>

[url=#user_comment_27788]@Merc[/url]: Actually thats a pretty solid strategy. An example of cheese is 4-pooling (not building any drones so you can get zerglings as fast as theoretically possible). You have no economy and get lings only a little bit faster, but if your enemy isn't prepared, he's toast.

Never really understood what cheesing was. It's an all or nothing strategy right? Like being Terran and fast building 4 raxes nad Marine rush. Right?

I'm somewhere between here and "casual."

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And make believe with you
And live in harmony, harmony
Oh love!

Geez. SC2 needs some loooooove. On a sidenote, new TF2-blog today. MOAR DROPS, yay. An Engie-update would be soooo moar fun.

Halo Wars has relatively frequent neutral battles.

If you aren't facing fools that use a crap strategy that can be easily countered.

"...and what if he doesn't win?" I think that's what you were going for anyway.

Also, ENTIRE FORUM IS RRRRRRRAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAGGGGGGEEEEEE

@ Random Lurker.
http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft/Cheese
Cheese is an unconventional strategy with high risk/reward. If scouted it is usually easily countered. Basically an all-or-nothing strategy.

You know what, every average SC player who uses the simplest tactics are gonna be a losing streak cause the pros knows exactly what there are doing. That's why we have...noobs in the first place although I am contemplating about it.

I see alot of complaints against the zerg. i suspect they will be overpowered and i believe due to all the videos of the terrans getting screwed over by every zerg unit.

I like Probe-chan.

I dunno what the "trap" (s)he's laying is tho... I don't have a beta key. Would someone care to enlighten me?

@...: It's a metaphor! Or simile. *Googles* Metaphor, definitely.

...and could we perhaps finally be seeing an SCV get the Jo Treatment in the next comic? :o

Yay more Probe-chan

Man...
...would'cha look at them forums!

Most people these days look for information, but all they get is opinions.

"He" appears female.

I have yet to win one online match!

Just like TF2 Forums.

gg
rage quit nao?

The cry of fans everywhere: "I lost?! OMG, 'Insert Unit Here' is sooo OP! NERF NOW!!"